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 Заголовок сообщения: Girls' cutting in Egypt and other issues
 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Вторник 11.01.2005 , 01:53 
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Зарегистрирован: Четверг 20.05.2004 , 02:41
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girls ( in his mind and in his family`s mind ) should be cutted!


Are you sure of that ?

_________________
Dezy ..You Are The Best
Printing : The Art Of Fueling Paper With Power


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Вторник 11.01.2005 , 02:48 
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Зарегистрирован: Пятница 05.09.2003 , 13:19
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mahmoud писал(а):
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because for him she is "just a girl" and girls ( in his mind and in his family`s mind ) should be cutted!


Are you sure of that ?


Oh God-in-heaven Mahmoud.

You are defending this man as possibly moral in how he would treat his daughters?

You embarass yourself.


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Вторник 11.01.2005 , 04:11 
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Magnon писал(а):
mahmoud писал(а):
Цитата:
because for him she is "just a girl" and girls ( in his mind and in his family`s mind ) should be cutted!


Are you sure of that ?


Oh God-in-heaven Mahmoud.

You are defending this man as possibly moral in how he would treat his daughters?

You embarass yourself.


I am Not Defending any body ..i just asked a question.. not more not less..and i am not embarrassing my self..it won't harm when i ask something.

_________________
Dezy ..You Are The Best
Printing : The Art Of Fueling Paper With Power


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Вторник 11.01.2005 , 21:13 
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Зарегистрирован: Пятница 05.09.2003 , 13:19
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I think that your point is that "not all Egyptians think that cutting is good or ok".

But this man is not only likely to cut his daughters (he is more likely to be badly educated and backwards, as well as not being very concerned about women in general). Maybe he would put them in a brothel.

So that this man is EVIL and best gone is no question.

Apart from that, many Egyptians do still believe that cutting is a good thing for women - they say "only a little", but they have no idea what "a little" is or is not.

Do you believe in cutting Mahmoud?


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Вторник 11.01.2005 , 21:15 
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Зарегистрирован: Понедельник 11.10.2004 , 15:16
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hallo,

yes, i am sure!
in egypt girls still become cutted! - it`s done in poorer families with low school - education.( i know a family in egypt, who lives with 30 euro per month: the mother and her seven children. - the father has died.) they think it`s the guarantee for a girl to stay faithful and pure until and during her marriage. - and you can find a lot of very very poor people in egypt! - even in hurghada!
in egypt it`s forbidden by official law until 1998.
but unofficial it`s still practised!
young girls at the age of six mostly are cutted by their mothers or aunts.
this mostly happens without narcotization! the duration: half an hour!!!

with best regards,
hekate


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 00:35 
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Зарегистрирован: Пятница 05.09.2003 , 13:19
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According to official estimates, more than 90% of Egyptian girls are circumcised and more than 70% of the operations are carried out at home in unsanitary conditions, often leading to girls bleeding to death(BBC news, AFP) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/42914.stm

The practice of female circumcision is widespread in Egypt. According to the Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey (EDHS) done in 1995, 97% of the ever-married females questioned had been circumcised. The prevalence was only 90%, however, with those with secondary or higher education as well as in the frontier provinces. According to other studies, two thirds of circumcised females showed a partial or total excision of the clitoris and labia minora, while partial or total excision of the clitoris was less common and of the labia minora only was least common. Labia majora excision occurred in one in eleven cases only. http://www.islam-online.net/iol-english/dowalia/techng-2000-August-22/techng9.asp

[b]WHAT I'VE HEARD EGYPTIAN MEN SAY ABOUT "CUTTING"[/b]

They claim that, "it doesn't hurt them" (because they are men and never had it done" and "it is a cultural thing", and "it is only a little bit" (because it isn't a full excisement of all the vagina like they do in the Sudan - GREAT - compare ruining a woman's sexual pleasure to amputating her genitals and sewing them shut - which is better - NEITHER).

Cutting is supposed to be a way to make sure a woman is faithful. What it really does is:

1. Hurt the girl terribly and scare her to death.
2. Damage her ability to feel sexual pleasure.
3. (possibly) cause her terrible infections.

Of course, it doesn't guarantee a woman is faithful at ALL. It guarantees that she will be traumatized.

I will link to an article by an Egyptian woman about cutting - she had it done as a child. She was imprisoned in Egypt, for her writings, and left (to teach in the USA) because her life was in danger. I will excerpt a part of her book that talks about it felt to her, to be "cut"


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 Заголовок сообщения: PART 1 The Mutilated: The Question That No One Would Answer
 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 00:37 
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Зарегистрирован: Пятница 05.09.2003 , 13:19
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was six years old that night when I lay in my bed, warm and peaceful in that pleasurable state which lies half way between wakefulness and sleep, with the rosy dreams of childhood flitting by, like gentle fairies in quick succession. I felt something move under the blankets, something like a huge hand, cold and rough, fumbling over my body, as though looking for something. Almost simultaneously another hand, as cold and as rough and as big as the first one, was clapped over my mouth, to prevent me from screaming. They carried me to the bathroom. I do not know how many of them there were, nor do I remember their faces, or whether they were men or women. The world to me seemed enveloped in a dark fog winch prevented me from seeing. Or perhaps they put 4ome kind of a cover over my eyes. All I remember is that I was frightened and that there were many of them, and that something hke an iron grasp caught hold of my hand and my arms and my thighs, so that I became unable to resist or even to move. I also remember the icy touch of the bathroom tiles under my naked body, and unknown voices and humming sounds interrupted now and again by a rasping metallic sound which reminded me of the butcher when he used to sharpen his knife before daughtering a sheep for the Eid' . My blood was frozen in my veins. It looked to me as though some thieves had broken into my room and kidnapped me ftom my bed. They were getting ready to cut my throat which was always what happened with disobedient girls fike myself in the stories that my old rural grandmother was so fond of telling me. I strained my ears trying to catch the rasp of the metallic sound. The moment it ceased, it was as though my heart stopped beating with it. I was unable to see, and somehow my breathing seemed also to have stopped. Yet I imagined the thing that was making the rasping sound coming closer and closer to me. Somehow it was not approac@ng my neck as I had expected but another part of my body. Somewhere below my belly, as though seeking something buried between my thighs. At that very moment I realized that my thighs had been pulled wide apart, and that each of my lower limbs was being held as far away ftom the other as possible, gripped by-steel fingers that never relinquished their pressure. I felt that the rasping knife or blade was heading straight down towards my throat. Then suddenly the sharp metallic edge seemed to drop between my thighs and there cut off a piece of flesh from my body. I screamed with pain despite the tight hand held over my mouth, for the pain was not just a pain, it was like a searing flame that went through my whole body. After a few moments, I saw a red pool of blood around my hips. I did not know what they had cut off from my body, and I did not try to find out. I just wept, and called out to my mother for help. But the worst shock of all was when I looked around and found her standing by my side. Yes, it was her, I could not be mistaken, in flesh and blood, right in the midst of these strangers, talking to them and smiling at them, as though they had not participated in slaughtering her daughter just a few moments ago. They carried rne to my bed. I saw them catch hold of my sister, who was two years younger, in exactly the same way they had caught hold of me a few minutes earlier. I cried out with afl my might. No! No! I could see my sister's face held between the big rough hands. It had a deathly pallor and her wide black eyes met mine for a split second, a glance of dark terror which I can never forget. A moment later and she was gone, behind the door of the bathroom where I had just been. The look we exchanged seemed to say: 'Now we know what it is. Now we know where lies our tragedy. We were born of a special sex, the female sex. We are destined in advance to taste of misery, and to have a part of our body torn away by cold, unfeeling cruel hands.' My family was not an uneducated Egyptian family. On the contrary, both my parents had been fortunate enough to have a very good education, by the standards of those days. My father was a university graduate and that year (1937) had been appointed General Controller of Education for the Province of Menoufla in the Delta region to the North of Cairo. My mother had been taught in French schools by her father who was Director-General of Army Recruitment. Nevertheless, the custom of circumcising girls was very prevalent at the time, and no girl could escape having her clitoris amputated, irrespective of whether her family lived in a rural or an urban area. When I returned to school after having recovered from the operation, I asked my classmates and friends about what had happened to me, only to discover that all of them without exception, had been through the same experience, no matter what social class they came ftom (upper class, middle or lower-middle class).


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: PART 1 The Mutilated: The Question That No One Would An
 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 00:47 
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Зарегистрирован: Пятница 05.09.2003 , 13:19
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see

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 22-1971258


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 08:22 
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Зарегистрирован: Четверг 20.05.2004 , 02:41
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Magnon писал(а):
I think that your point is that "not all Egyptians think that cutting is good or ok".

But this man is not only likely to cut his daughters (he is more likely to be badly educated and backwards, as well as not being very concerned about women in general). Maybe he would put them in a brothel.

So that this man is EVIL and best gone is no question.

Apart from that, many Egyptians do still believe that cutting is a good thing for women - they say "only a little", but they have no idea what "a little" is or is not.

Do you believe in cutting Mahmoud?


No , i don't believe in cutting.. nor Egyptian believe in cutting..it is a bad habbit..the un educated people in the past did it.. but it is not working now.. and all what you posted Magnon is somethings from the past.. and even that writer i know her.. and we all Egyptians know her.. can you tell me her age now ? and when she got cutted ? along time dear for sure.. most of these things changed..don't tell me organisations said.. and BBC said.. i don't believe.. i just believe what i see.. and i am Egyptian..and if Egyptians still doing this thingy.. i would say it.

Hekate said :

yes, i am sure!

Sure of what ? that i believe in cutting ?

_________________
Dezy ..You Are The Best
Printing : The Art Of Fueling Paper With Power


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 20:42 
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Зарегистрирован: Пятница 05.09.2003 , 13:19
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I know this woman is very, very old - 80 or 90 or something, so I get your point.

Still, most women in Egypt have been cut.

To be fair, I don't know if they are using current practices for women born in the past 10 years as a metric.

The fact that cutting women is illegal since the upper court reversed the lower court decision (which allowed cutting) means that it is not standard practice.

Still, it is commonly practiced, although not officially.

Sorry if I offended you. You are proud of your country and that is a good thing.

I liked Egypt (and Egyptians) very much, and I didn't mean to insult you. But women dating Egyptian men, especially uneducated ones, should know that many of them say one thing, and do another - especially when it comes to children.


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 21:13 
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Зарегистрирован: Понедельник 11.10.2004 , 15:16
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hallo mahmoud,

you are an egyptian men and you love your country.
this is all right!
i love egypt, too. - but there are some things i do not love!
but i never again close my eyes when seeing something bad...

i tell you again that i am sure that mohammed osman would cut his daughters.

i know that in egypt girls are still cutted!

http://www.islaminstitut.de/index.php?t ... ikel&id=71

http://www.aktion-menschen.de/menschen/ ... gmain.html

http://www.inidia.de/maedchenbeschneidung.htm

with best regards,
hekate


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 21:22 
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Зарегистрирован: Понедельник 11.10.2004 , 15:16
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hallo magnon,

you have given up very early!


you wrote:

" I liked Egypt (and Egyptians) very much, and I didn't mean to insult you. But women dating Egyptian men, especially uneducated ones, should know that many of them say one thing, and do another - especially when it comes to children. "

thank you for this!

with best regards,
uneducated hekate


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 21:46 
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Зарегистрирован: Понедельник 11.10.2004 , 15:16
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hallo magnon,

i think the problem can not only be found in bad education, when you belong to the man.
the problem is, that these "playboys " are organized. - it`s a sex - mafia!
they are not stupid and they know how to conquer women.

with best regards,
hekate


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 22:50 
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Зарегистрирован: Пятница 05.09.2003 , 13:19
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hekate писал(а):
hallo magnon,

you have given up very early!


you wrote:

" I liked Egypt (and Egyptians) very much, and I didn't mean to insult you. But women dating Egyptian men, especially uneducated ones, should know that many of them say one thing, and do another - especially when it comes to children. "

thank you for this!

with best regards,
uneducated hekate


I think that you misunderstood my writing - probably due to language. What I said was exactly what you did: That many EGYPTIAN men SAY ONE THING and DO ANOTHER.

Whether you are educated or not isn't really relevant, since you are Russian (presumably) and it isn't your custom to "cut" girls.


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 22:54 
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hekate писал(а):
hallo magnon,

i think the problem can not only be found in bad education, when you belong to the man.
the problem is, that these "playboys " are organized. - it`s a sex - mafia!
they are not stupid and they know how to conquer women.

with best regards,
hekate


Yes, but you are confusing two issues. One problem is the lying and "scam" for stealing money through convincing that a woman is loved (until he can access her money). This is a group-sponsored phenomena and is a HUGE problem in the tourist cities. It can happen in other cities (I know women where I live who have had similar problems with Tunisians, for example) but in Egypt, particularly in Hurghada and Sharm, there is an organized system (you call it a mafia) to fool women and make them believe that the truth is different from what it is.

The other problem is that uneducated and poor Egyptians (and many of the guys in Hurghada and Sharm are uneducated and poor) are more likely to IGNORE THE EGYPTIAN LAW and continue the tradition of "cutting" girls.

Two different problems.


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 23:00 
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I said: But women should know that many of them say one thing, and do another - especially when it comes to children. This being true of women who date uneducated and poor Egyptian men.

You read my sentence in-correctly. English grammer differs from Russian. You misunderstood that I was insulting you because you have no education.

This is not true.

I think that the "sex mafia" is a problem for both educated and uneducated women.


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Среда 12.01.2005 , 23:03 
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Зарегистрирован: Понедельник 11.10.2004 , 15:16
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hallo magnon,
thank you very much for your replies!
i do agree to your point of view.

with best regards,
hekate


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Четверг 13.01.2005 , 00:52 
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Well well well..

i see your point of views Magnon ,hekate !

you are right..i won't deny that.. because the truth is truth and no one can decive it..yesss who knows..may be those guys believe in cutting..as their origins brought them up on these things.( i fully agree ) on that point

second point is : uneducated guys and dating them.. you are pretty right..and i said thay before..and you know what ? the problem is worst when you meet a scammer and he is educated and have a university degree.. because he can do more tricks than the uneducated one..

third point : it is not about english and russian or german language..your words Magnon were obvious..and just Hekate may be didn't read it well so she was in that trap of language barriers..that's why she miunderstood you..but for me when i read your words.. i understood that you meant the uneducated Egyptian guys not Hekate ..

i just knew a girl she is yankette..she had a problem with an Egyptian.. and that Egyptian was living in the U.S..and he left her after taking most of her money which she saved it for her university fees !it is awful..sure you can imagine.. when she knew that i am egyptian.. she began attacking me..just because iam Egyptian..

beautiful day to you !

Mahmoud

_________________
Dezy ..You Are The Best
Printing : The Art Of Fueling Paper With Power


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 Заголовок сообщения: UNIVERSITY STUDIES
 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Четверг 13.01.2005 , 03:12 
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mahmoud писал(а):
Well well well..

second point is : uneducated guys and dating them.. you are pretty right..and i said thay before..and you know what ? the problem is worst when you meet a scammer and he is educated and have a university degree.. because he can do more tricks than the uneducated one..


Well, yes, BUT usually when someone has gone to the trouble of gaining a respectable degree, they don't ruin their reputation by being a fraudster. Conversely, a very good fraudster thinks he is SO SMART that he doesn't need a degree.

University studies demostrate an ability to work towards a difficult goal, to do work, to learn, to meet deadlines, to deal with administrative matters, and to focus. On some level, they measure intelligence, but they moreso demonstrate perserverence.

Many criminals think that they are above "work" and "proving themselves" (because they are so wonderful that we should all give them money - they think society owes them something). Which is having a university degree education serves as a very good barometer for finding someone who is MORE LIKELY to be serious.

It isn't a perfect measure, but it is a good one.


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 UNREAD_POST Добавлено: Четверг 13.01.2005 , 03:14 
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mahmoud писал(а):

i just knew a girl she is yankette..she had a problem with an Egyptian.. and that Egyptian was living in the U.S..and he left her after taking most of her money which she saved it for her university fees !it is awful..sure you can imagine.. when she knew that i am egyptian.. she began attacking me..just because iam Egyptian..



Well, I've been attacked for being American since the first day that I set my foot outside the country. And it was not ONE TIME. It is in the HUNDREDS OF TIMES.

More people have strong feelings about the USA than Egypt. Even you can admit this.

Congratulations on your first time for being treated like a country, and not a person. Fun, isn't it?


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